Let me get this straight here so we're all clear: The school will close to save money, school taxes will go up once again next year like it always does, the teachers and administrators will still get their raises and benefits. Did I miss anything?

To the public relations gurus. You can put lipstick on a hog, but it remains a hog.What gets cannabalized next year to cover ever growing salaries and expenses ? Where are the union givebacks ?

If the Board goes with the CACIH recommendation, all of Mills Pond Elementary students will be affected. With 55% going to Saint James Elementary then feeding into Nesaquake Middle school and the other 45 % staying at Mills Pond Elementary then relocating to another town to Great Hollow Middle school. Great Hollow then splits into East and West High Schools. Mills Pond children are the ones losing. They are losing their friends, and now being torn from the St. James community. St. James students SHOULD go to St. James schools...meaning...Nesaquake Middle School!! Siblings will be split because of this. There will be a sibling grandfathered into Nesaquake while younger siblings will be fed into Great Hollow. How is that saving any money having 2 buses coming through the same town for two different Middle Schools? This is ludicrous! Mills Pond should become a 'split' elementary and have Nesconset children go to their home Middle school, while St. James students go to their home Middle school. Why isn't anyone seeing this problem???

@Mill Pond Mom, I am a MPE mom too and agree 100% with you! We have to make the board see this as a reasonable and fair solution by attending the next several meetings and making our voices heard.

Ken, thank you for the input. I will be affected by having 2 children in 2 different Middle Schools. I know I am not alone with that situation. I will send letters out to the press.

Nesconset Mom

I honestly feel that this is a short fix to a bigger problem. I have said this many time. Yes. I agree with the comment that this will impact other costs due to longer transportation routes, etc. AND The community will not necessarily be saving the amount that the CAC states ONCE YOU factor in the added costs due to the change!
The Board of Education really need to start from a zero budget and work its way up adding the essentials first. AND the board need to think of the long range plan not just the year to year planning.
Our taxes will not stay the same, even with this change.............so the bigger picture needs to be addressed........

I would like to ask the board to seriously look at redistricting ALL the elementary schools. Patching the boundary lines each time a change is made has resulted in ridiculous school zones. (Seriously, look at the map) I believe it is done this way to impact the least amount of families however the adjustments previously made, no longer make sense and should be revised. If they just patch the boundaries again, then the kids furthest south that went to Nesconset may have to go all the way up, past 347 and the Mall to get to Mills Pond. The kids furthest east in St. James, end up going to Great Hollow, which again adds traffic over 347. By having all this school traffic crossing back and forth over 347 we just add to the traffic issues in our neighborhood. In addition, the added time on the bus adds both cost and safety issues.
If they don’t redistrict all the schools, the middle school boundaries should then be set geographically rather than by school. North of 347 – Nesaquake, South Great Hollow.
So listen up – Make the right decision and fix the boundary lines to reduce bus time, simplify bus routes, improve traffic in our community and keep our children safe. Do it right this time!

@Mills Pond Mom - Noone mentioned anything about grandfathering the current 7th graders. There is a good chance they will be split apart next year.

@ bill. A pattern of mismanagement is emerging regarding transportation costs. Mills Pond Mom and St James Mom noticed this as well as I a few months back re the Princeton Plan. This was the main reason given for tabling the Princeton Plan ( $11 million dollars in increased expenditures to the bus company over the next 10 years)

My advice is the same. Contact the NEWS, the TIMES, NEWSDAY, and NEWS 12..These local media outlets are the best way to get action. Good Luck.

I mean all you have to do is go to Patchogue and other villages and see that All of the money that's been "thrown" at these places has been looted...unfortunately there isn't much left to loot anymore, though our Local Craven Politicians are an inventive sort in that particular area of expertise.

I am also a Mills Pond parent with transportation concerns. In addition to the concerns mentioned above, we must also factor in the construction creeping up 347. As it approaches this area, the main and back roads will be congested with traffic. I shudder to think how long my children will be on the bus due to that. Lets not forget that the bus times are staggered and used for different schools. If there is not enough time to complete a run in time for the next school start, you are talking about adding busses.

In addition, the Board would like the community to address them in a "non emotional" manner. I find this ironic as they speak very "emotionally" towards each other at Board meetings. I question whether their voting on some issues is based on emotion rather than impartial prudence.

Thirdly, I am concerned that if all goes according to recommendation, classes in the affected elementary schools will be more crowded than in the unaffected schools. I am wondering how the staffing savings presented by the CAC can be achieved without driving up class sizes. Even if a school closes, we have the same amount of students.

Lastly, I feel the St. James community is being sliced and diced and annexed as part of Nesconset. Nesconset is a great community, but I paid what I paid for my house to be part of St. James. The board should remember that the community members vote them in and therefore they should take the input from the community to heart.

I agree with Mills Pond mom. This is taring apart this community. St James children should stay in St James schools where they see children from religion, sports, church and community events. The same would go for Nesconsett students. With all the social problems (drugs, alcohol, increased suicides) we need to build the community bonds not break them up!! The 45% students who remain at MPE (especially the older grades who don't have time to establish stronger relationships with new children) will have 2 big splits. In Sept split from families they've known since preschool then make new friends in a middle school that splits again! What an injustice to these children. I agree though difficult and uncomfortable for some, if a school must close rezone the whole district. (and strongly consider MPE a split elementary at least for now)

I should have added if it's so important to move 100% of Nesconsett students together and not break them up, why is it fair to break the small population that remains at Mills Pond TWICE!!!! ? Does anyone else see how unfair this is? They are split from friends, siblings, familiar teachers (that older friends, siblings may have had).

They need to redistrict ALL the schools fairly. My suggestion for the east side is north of 347 goes to Mills pond and St J El. Then Mills Pond feeds Nesequake and the families closer to Great Hollow can go to there.

In reading the CACIH final report it appears that the proposal presented is the best scenario. Enrollment is declining and will continie to drop. There is a case to close an elementary school. With the Nesconset students staying together and The St James students still attending two St James schools, I think it works out. Are there adjustments? Yes. But there will be more changes down the road. I have no doubt the district will be going down to two middle schools and one high school within the next few years.
There will always be changes.

It would be easier to accept closing a school if there were real savings to be had and that was translating into more opportunities for the students. Unforunately, any savings that the district can find goes to make payroll.

With that said, I am amazed at the outrage parents have about school closings, transportaion cuts, proposed cuts to programs, yet nobody talks about one of the fundamental challenges facing this and many school districts. Union influence of who is elected to the BOE and never-ending contractual obligations thanks to the Tri-borough Amendment. Parents need to learn about what directly infuences the district and speak out.

You should not be amazed at parental outrage because these cuts hurt or potentially hurt our children. That being said I agree that there should be more focus on Union influences and contracts as these ridiculous demands, agreements unwillingness to have cuts or freezes is the biggest outrage that directly affects all the other cuts and decisions!!! In the private sector there have been substantial cuts, givebacks, layoffs. Many would be happy with a proposed freeze

In my time in Smithtown, I have seen Mills Pond, Nesaquake and West open, and then with declining enrollment, Mills Pond, Great Hollow and Nesaquake close along with East becoming a middle school and Accompsett becoming the 9th grade campus. After that, enrollment spiked and we got to where we are today. The children and parents who went through all the various closings and re-openings survived.

Enrollment is dropping which is necessitating the closing of Nesconset and will eventually lead to other schools closing. The closings might be moving faster because of budget cuts, but nothing is going to stop that nor should it. What needs to be done is configure our district so that we can go through changes in enrollment with the buildings we eventually get down too.

would agree that if enrollment truly dropping then something should be done, however I would also agree that something shoud have ability to grow/change with the times. It seems with current recommendations they will be maxing out 2 school on the East side.I have lived in this district 35 years and fortunately during my school years was not affected by the closures and reopenings. (until now) I would LOVE to see data on what is really saved long term when schools close then reopen several years later. Also I have heard from some how terrible things were with the closures so should the question really be whether the families will survive or is the a better way????

Well there are Rules...and there are "rules"...part 1 of 2

SCHOOL BUS SCHEDULING AND ROUTING

The District Transportation Director shall establish bus schedules and
routes under the supervision of the Assistant Superintendent for Finance and
Operations.

Authorized bus stops shall be located at convenient intervals in places
where students may embark and disembark the buses, cross highways, and await
the arrival of buses in the utmost safety allowed by road conditions.

The factors considered in determining the adequacy of a bus stop are:
1. The number of students who will be using the bus stop;
2. The age of the students;
3. The nature and amount of available space at which students may wait for
their school bus;
4. The nature of the roadway on which the students must walk to reach their
respective bus stop; and
5. The nature of the intersection or roadway passing by the bus stop.

These factors may be considered alone or in combination in evaluating the
adequacy of a bus stop.

http://www.smithtown.k12.ny.us/files/_UDCvc_/9bb81340aec1f1813745a49013852ec4/PolicyManual-9.1.11.pdf

MJH, You are Not going to find it writing because as I stated...there are Rules...as in the case of the above written policies that are on the books as Official in case someone wants to sue or "make a big deal about it".

And their are "rules"...those "flexible rules" that are Not written, but in practice are openly broken and flouted by bus drivers and bus companies for one reason or another.

At my link on page 8411 titled "School Bus Scheduling and Routing", "why" do you think it's written before five items "The factors considered in determining the adequacy of a bus stop are:" and ends with the statement "These factors may be considered alone or in combination in evaluating the adequacy of a bus stop." ?

The "factors" are listed as...

1. The number of students who will be using the bus stop;
2. The age of the students;
3. The nature and amount of available space at which students may wait for
their school bus;
4. The nature of the roadway on which the students must walk to reach their
respective bus stop; and
5. The nature of the intersection or roadway passing by the bus stop.

http://www.smithtown.k12.ny.us/files/_UDCvc_/9bb81340aec1f1813745a49013852ec4/PolicyManual-9.1.11.pdf

Sounds like a loophole you could...drive a school bus through, to me ?

Please Ken, my Heart is breaking...but my wallet every December when I pay property taxes...Is Killing Me !

Taxed Out says ""@BillLongIsland, I don't know if I can buy into your Non Tax Paying "illegal aliens" argument."

Well, did you read the report or are you just expressing your Opinion ?

There is nothing wrong with expressing your Opinion, but if it's just your Feelings, there is Nothing that will convince you...and that's ok too :-)

Remember this when you go pay your property taxes this year.

Ken, your assertion that Mexico should reimburse the US is rediculous... not every Hispanic is from Mexico. Further, the govt. of ANY Latin country (or any country) isn't responsible for the actions of it's citizens.

The personalized pickups where brought up at a board meeting Mr Ehmann said he was going to look into it because the bus drivers are suppose to only stop at bus stops not at peoples driveways. I've seen a bus stop 3 times on one block. I don't know if anything was done to correct this yet.

Eye opening statement from Superintendet Ehmann last night. The average increase for all STA members has been 5% without a contract. It seems for the past year the administration and BoE has forgotten to clarify to the public that the teachers get both a step increase AND a column increase when a contract is expired. FYI 91% of our teachers are in college courses that meet the criteria for column movement. So 91% of our teachers have been getting a 5% increase to thier salaries since the contract expired in 2010.

That is eye opening. I have been fortunate to get a 2.x% yearly increase, of which a good portion goes to health insurance increases, since the economy tanked.

Maybe the teachers should put away the "Working Without a Contract" pins and shirts they wear to work from time to time.

These shirtwearing teachers actually wonder "Why" Tax Payers hate Teachers and their Unions ?

@Bill No article-Ed Ehmann made that statement at last night's meeting. It was actually a lengthy discussion. The 91% of STA member that meet the 15 credit criteria came from Superintendent Ehmann, as did the 5% average increase information. So I guess you can ask him for clarification at the next BoE meeting. Or you can even FOIL those documents.

@ Pam, if what you're saying is true then even if we vote down the budget this coming year the teachers will still get their raises and property taxes will still increase. I find this disturbing.

Pam
Bill only hears and reads things he wants to hear. In your last post you made it clear it was a statement from Mr Ehmann

Did you know… Teachers have the potential to earn THREE different types of salary increases each year of their contract? An annual cost of living increase, a “step” increase, and a “column transfer” increase for continuing education and professional development credits. In any given year of the contract this represents about a 7-8% raise each and every year, which is compounded. In addition some teachers are eligible for longevity bonuses of $5,100., depending on length of service within the district. (Source: Article XX, STA contract and BoE meeting 2/7/2011)

http://litaxes.blogspot.com/2011/05/smithtown-long-island-teachers.html

Bill most of this data is FOILable, that's the best way to get the facts. Official documents hold more factual information. Check out the Ed-1 Record and Retention Schedule. It will list all documents that you as a citizen can access. It is a very helpful document. Bill you are right this should all be on a PowerPoint or white paper, unless the SCSD would prefer the community to be unaware.

One Opinion, Serious question what do you think a teacher should earn? I am curious for your answer

@Bill here is some better clarification on costs.
Average steps are 3.6 % - backing out those at the top getting stipends the actual cost is 3.9% , for STEP only
The rest 1.2% is related to pension and health benefit increases

Total increase in cost 11.5 million is 5% of budget - almost 100% of that increase is salary related
** So I apoligize for not being completely accurate-like the administration always is with us. I just try and correct my inaccurate statements as quickly as I can.
Have a great night.

Just found out that every child in Brentwood middle school and elementary schools are getting free breakfast. The rationale behind it is that some study was done and they came to the conclusion that kids that eat breakfast do better on tests. Last time I checked you had to actually study to do well on tests. Didn't realize eating makes you smarter.......

Let me know when all of our kids in Smithtown get free breakfast. Especially since we actually pay our taxes.

@Bill- well aware of how teacher contracts work both of my parents were NYSUT members, between the 2 of them they had close to 60 years of teaching here on LI. So yes I value high quality teachers, unfortunately as you said the system is broken. That's why it is even more important for the public to understand all the issues facing our children in the public education system. Considering how large our district is and how large our budget is our district should have a multi year plan that they work off of. The NYS comptroller's have been saying it for a few years now, but alas it is not a mandate so districts do not want to do it. Yet a plan would enable us to look down the road to see if what we (as a district) want can actually be acheived without putting us into a fiscal tailspin. IE: newer computers, more virtual courses, more AP and IB courses, and most of all keeping what we currently have! Mr. Saggase has been asking the admin to do this for years, yet here we are.

@Bill you have to do some homework of your own. Reference the STA contract via Empire Center. It has FIVE salary grids, one or each year of the contract.Each year represents higher salaries. For example, the first salary grid shows $42,000 as a teachers' stating salary. The fifth grid shows $51,000 as a starting salary. Sill newer grids will be added once the new contract is finalized. When coupled with cost of living, automatic grid increases and professional advancement, teachers are making out like bandits. Bill, do some homework before saying " show me". You are in New York, not Missouri.

Wow Bill. I can't believe there's someone else out there that actually understands that a salary schedule was an invention of EMPLOYERS to save them money. It's not an advantage to the employees. I'm a labor attorney and I have to try to explain that concept all the time to my clients (management) and to community members. Unfortunately, there are too many people out there who either don't understand or choose not to understand.

Ken sounds like he has a personal ax to going, and I'm not talking about how he doesn't like his taxes.

@Bob.You don't even know me, yet you have reached the conclusion that I have a hidden agenda - in this case, an ax to grind. Bob, the psychic network infomercials terminated on 9/11. You're an attorney, not a psychic. Don't make accusations that that can't stand the light of day.

In a recent letter to the Smithtown News, I analyzed the salary grid and the five schedules in the STA contract. In writing this letter I used an essay derived from the Empire Center called " The Trouble with Triborough". , which I used as a guide in analyzing the STA contract.

Please read this article and use your skills as a labor attorney in determining whether I am right or wrong. And in the future, please steer clear of silly, groundless accusations. I'm just a person who sees a wrong and is trying to make it right. I'm not running for office, but I do hope my letters arouse the curiosity of trained professionals such as yourself. This is a good school district that has lost its way. . It desperately needs help - today - from people such as yourself.

If not us, who? If not now, when ?

@Bob, @Bill I realize this thread has gotten off topic but what are your solutions? You accuse people on this forum of having agenda's yet we are simply taxpayers and parents who see an unsustainable system. We point out the flaws, however they may have come about, and ask for change. The employee obligations of this district and many others are becoming a burden that will effect the quality of schools for years to come. Do any of you really belive that the kids in school today will be able to afford to live here in 20 years? Property taxes have doubled in ten years as direct relalationship to the school budget. I think the average teachers time in the job is about 15 years. What does that time bomb of increases look like down the road? We have a teachers union in this district who's only public statements regarding the contract has been a newspaper article about how unfair everything is, and an embarrasing rally of their membership at a BOE meeting. We have many fabulous teachers in this district and this selfish negotiation process by the STA leadership is creating much animosity throughout the community. It's a terrible thing. So tell us, what are your positions. Are your family members part of this system? Because if my spouse was in line for an $80K pension and paid health benefits for life at retirement, then I don't think I would have a problem paying $9000 in school taxes.

@robkoz You should consider Alabama when you leave. They should have cleared out all their "illegals" by then. Perfect for you.

@Bill We will have to agree to disagree. You clearly do not see any issues with the current school budget or the crippling contractual obligations that face this school district and most districts in NY state. You are correct, nobody in the community is concerned about these issues except the five or six that post on this website. So why are you here. To tell us how wrong we are? I believe the administration and the BOE fully understand that the district cannot afford another contract like the one that expired almost two years ago. They also understand that a back-ended contract has the potential to be devastating to the district. You realize that the STA went to impasse almost immediately after the contract expired. Why? Because they can continue to get a 5% annual increase every year with or without a contract. Even if the district can't afford it (Thank you Gov. Cuomo for the tax cap).
As for the retirement health benfits, I incorrectly quoted the Supertintendents retirement health benefits (full paid) not the teachers. I'm not sure what the teachers get but I would guess it's not a bad deal.

Bill, there's people that have animosity for the STA leadership but don't post because they think posting is a waste of time. By the way I only see 2 people posting that is in favor of the STA

Just out of curiosity, are the contract negotiations always under the table between politicians and the union or is there any transparancy to them? Also, is there a way to view their contract since salaries and benefits are paid for through property taxes?

@robkoz-A member of the audience asked if the district will post the MOA (memorandum of Agreement) before the union membership votes on it. Yes legally they can do it-but will they?? Superintendent Ehmann did not respond yes or no to that question of will they.

As far as the healthcare benefits go- I do not have the contract in front of me but, I believe STA members pay for 14.5% of their premium. However- they do have an STA benefits fund that the district pays several thousand per member to fund-this fund is used to help cover the STA members co-pays, it has been in the last 2 contracts.

Here's a place that you can find past and current employment contracts in pdf format, union contracts and individual pensions, annual wages, etc, for school district employees, teachers...

For example, here is the employment contract for Edward L. Ehman for July 1,2007 to June 20, 2011...

http://qvs.visiblegovernment.us/seethroughNY.net/contracts/school-contracts/Smithtowns063011.pdf

I don't understand advising people to move out of New York. Do you think that the financial crisis is limited to New York? How about Florida where there are entire communities boarded up? How about California or Arizona, would you advise someone to move there? Where are you telling the RNs your advising to go? The grass is always greener on the other side. Instead of advising people to leave, maybe you should take a look at how many people leave Long Island and come back.

@Hammer perhaps you are not a small business owner that employess 25 or more.but it is becoming harder and harder to stay open for business. We are trying for the sake of all of our employees to choose to remain open for business, we are keenly aware that their mortgage, car payment, credit card payment, are connected to them receiving a paycheck, but there is only so much a State or government can take before a business decides to say NO I will go. My husband and I are both born and bred NY'ers business has been in Smithtown for over 60 years, but there comes a time when you say -enough I can't afford to stay. And the employees do what????? We try and sleep at night with this reality.

Long island is a great place to live. Times are tough here but they are tough everywhere. There will always be opportunity here. We live a train ride away from the greatest city in the world. There is nothing like a summer on Long Island with our beaches and what we have to offer. If moving to the sticks in North Carolina is the answer for you then by all means go ahead. Trust me you will be back. Long Island is not perfect by any means, and is in a fiscal mess, but everywhere else has the same problems. They just don't have the great things Long Island has to offer. North Carolina and Florida and what not may sound great, but living there is different then visiting.

@ Hammer, Pam et al. Interesting sidebar. , but the other comments raised earlier in this electronic public forum were , in my opinion, more substantial and topical.. I am not packing my bags as long as there are fighters like One Opinion, Pam, etc out there.

Look around at some of the areas that people flocked too from around the country only a few years ago and how they are doing. Las Vegas, Orlando, Phoenix, etc..., they were the hotspots only a few years ago. They have entire neighborhoods boarded up. We have a lot of for sale signs here and things are not great here but from my perspective they are better here then then elsewhere. I don't think leaving Long Island is the answer. I think that is bad advice to give somebody.

Hey Hammer, here's a good recent article in Newsday that pretty much nails it down:

http://www.newsday.com/opinion/oped/filler-why-they-leave-long-island-1.3527498